Ixchell Reyes 0:01
We all know that relevant content makes for better learning. But how do we break from the mold of programs built on textbooks that don’t understand our individual students?

Brent Warner 0:09
On this episode of the DIESOL podcast, we’re talking with Dr. Brent Jones about how to build your curriculum to simultaneously integrate content and language learning for better, more natural experiences for students.

Ixchell Reyes 0:36
Welcome to the DIESOL podcast where we focus on developing innovation in English as a second or other language.

Brent Warner 0:43
I’m Brent Warner professor of ESL at Irvine Valley College. And of course, I’m here with Ixchell Reyes is award winning educator and innovation and professional development, teacher trainer at Tech focus all the fun stuff. So Ixchell, how are you?

Ixchell Reyes 0:57
I’m doing well. Brent, how are you? Good, good.

Brent Warner 1:00
So today we have our first proper guests since episode 100. Is that right? Yeah. So so I am happy to bring on another Brent onto the show. So we’ve got Brent Jones. So Brent is director of the language programs at codon university here at i o School of Management in in the area where I am currently on sabbatical. So in the content area, and since 2009, he’s helped develop content and Language Integrated program, which is c li l. And Brent will get you to break this down for us in a few minutes. But but it also coordinator of teaching Teachers Helping Teachers, which is a special interest group in the jalt Association and we did the jalt interview last year, with Claire Conoco. And Brent’s research really focuses I love this on L two learning motivation and engagement, instructional technology, instructional design, Cleal, curriculum Mills, materials development genre approaches to second language reading and writing and extensive reading. And so all the things that were interesting stuff that we talked about Brent, so we’re so happy to be here.

Brent Jones 2:13
I’m glad. I’m glad to hear that. Yeah, that’s great.

Brent Warner 2:16
Yeah, it’s wonderful, and so, welcome to the show. Thank you so much.

Ixchell Reyes 2:19
Welcome Brent! Two Brents in one night!

Brent Jones 2:20
Yeah, thank you so much!

Brent Warner 2:23
Maybe a little too much. But but we’ll we’ll make. So Brent, today, particularly, we’re really happy to have you on and I’ve been, I got to know you a little bit, I went to one of the JALT meetings, and then we started talking and you also do a podcast, we’ll be able to share that later as well, some great and you had me on to kind of a little bit more open conversations where, you know, and it’s great. But we’ll we can share that a little bit later. But today, I really wanted to get into the work that you’re doing on your campus. Because it’s really interesting to me to see. And you know, I lived in Japan many years ago, and I saw a little bit of how the colleges worked and things like that. And now I’m back and I’m still seeing not a lot of changes. But then when I went to your campus, I saw like a very different attitude from the students a very different approach to what’s going on with everything. And I was like, Wait a second. It’s kind of working over here, right? Let’s, you know, there’s kind of this hidden complain joke about Japan, where it’s like, you know, it’s this kind of like a false study of English just for, I don’t know, whatever it is, like posterity’s sake or something. And, but when I went onto your campus, and I saw what your students were doing, I’m like, Oh, they’re really engaged. They’re really learning stuff. They’re, they’re taking these classes, elective classes that can help them out in different types of ways. And so, so, so, in you, you said that you’re doing this. And I think the pronunciation is clear, we actually don’t talk about it very much in my field at my level, and Ixchell and pre-show was talking a little bit about how it is more common in the K 12 programs in the States, but but not as much in the higher ed programs. And so, so I’ve just kind of wanted to get started with what is what is this CLIL and what what is the foundation of it, I guess?

Brent Jones 4:14
Right, right. Well, you know, I actually probably started hearing about CLIL, you know, as a as an actual separate field, maybe a little over 15, maybe even around 15 years ago, but even before that, I was interested in content based instruction or content based language instruction, which was, you know, some people might call it like a fad or, you know, a phase that that EFL and ESL went through. But, but you know, it caught my attention very early on. So I was teaching in another business program before and we were doing more of a content based instruction on a CBI, especially a thematic type of approach. And so when we set up our program, you know, we really thought that, you know, this is something that we want to incorporate. And, you know, my understanding, you know, and there might be some fine differences between CBI and quill. But I really don’t I don’t think that’s important for for teachers and even for curriculum developers, per se, just the, the idea that you’re using content as a, as a vehicle, and something that’s authentic, something that’s engaging something that’s, you know, relevant to the students life with, no, and this comes from educational psychology, you know, the fact that, you know, people are going to be more cognitively invested and, and hopefully, emotionally invested in what they’re doing, and then that the language acquisition will come in a more natural way. So that’s, that’s my basic understanding in a nutshell.

Ixchell Reyes 6:09
Right? And so can you tell us a little bit more about the pedagogy behind Khalil, and what differentiates it from the, I guess, CBI, which is a content content based instruction?

Brent Warner 6:26
And how you integrate it to integrate it? Because what I get interested in – Ixchell I think you might be too is like, are we just talking about the content? Or like, how is things like grammar? And how are those parts tied in?

Brent Jones 6:40
Yeah, so my understanding about the pedagogy, and I mentioned some of it just now that it’s based on something that’s relevant, and authentic, the language comes up, when it’s needed, you know, the, you know, the students like just in time and not for the students are going to be able to acquire the language points that they need, if it’s, if it comes in a time when they really need it. And it’ll stick it’ll hopefully stick a little more as well.

Ixchell Reyes 7:11
I wanted to ask one more question, Brent, Brent Britton Jones. Okay. So what are some of the, I guess, advantages for students and learning in terms of the content learning and language acquisition?

Brent Jones 7:28
Well, if it’s, and this is another part of it, actually, this is part of the pig pedagogy. And I probably brushed over this, but it should be integrated with across the curriculum, not just individual courses, but it should fit in with what they’re studying. So we’re actually a management school, which is kind of a hybrid between Economics and Business Administration, and with liberal arts, as a kind of under under lying foundation. But we try to touch on in, in the English courses, the English curriculum, we try to bring up topics and themes and issues that they will be coming into contact in their other courses. So it’s not just, you know, once a week, you know, we’re gonna we’re gonna talk about European Studies. It’s hopefully it fits in more with what their other other things that they’re learning and talking about in their other courses.

Brent Warner 8:34
So in those cases, then you’re kind of going to the other programs or the other, the other departments on campus and saying, what are you what are you guys talking or at least having a basic understanding of their programs or

Brent Jones 8:44
Ideally, yeah (laughter)

Brent Warner 8:49
And those are the finger quotes are coming up here. Right?

Brent Jones 8:52
That’s right. That’s right. I didn’t I didn’t know if I should mention that. Yeah, the finger quotes definitely there. And we could, this is definitely an area where we could do a better job, but, and I’ve seen actually presentations about this, where a content specialist and the language specialists work together. And, and it seems ideal, you know, and having a close working relationship, because the language teacher won’t always have the content, knowledge or the the specialization at a level that’s needed, you know, for the students, but in most cases, it works out because it’s almost better that the teacher is not an expert, because they can be kind of modeling, you know, how they would learn it as well. And so, more of a, you know, a big problem and this, this happens, I think at university, I don’t I’m I’m I’m not going to limit it to Japan, I think think this happens a lot, but you have area specialists, and they don’t remember what it’s like to be a learner. Right in that context. Right. So in that sense, you know, sometimes I think, especially for the language program, I don’t think it’s as big a deal. I think having this teacher learning alongside the the learners, I think there’s advantages to that, actually.

Brent Warner 10:33
Okay, so this is interesting is super interesting to kind of see what’s going on with this. Now, I’m also kind of curious though, because like I said, your campus, I saw real changes. And you we’ve talked about other campuses where students are kind of like, they see the English teacher, and they run away from the teacher, because they don’t want to have to say hello, right, or something like this. And so I’m wondering what’s going on? Like, one is like, Are there criticisms of this approach? Right, that you’re aware of? Or maybe another way to phrase this is why aren’t other programs embracing it? And sticking with the more traditional like, Okay, now, it’s grammar class time, now, it’s reading time, whatever else it is, and it is purely from your, your experience, it’s not necessarily a, a sweeping statement across the lines.

Brent Jones 11:25
Right, right. Well, yeah, that’s, that’s the issue, isn’t it? It’s, it’s, you know, one of the reasons that we develop, or the program that we we did is we felt that frustration, you know, my colleagues and I, who were in on the ground floor of building the program, we all experienced those, that those courses, and you know, that the only reason that, you know, there’s a grammar class, and oh, there’s a there’s a listening class, from my point of view is that, it’s, it’s just for convenience. You know, it’s easy to box, it’s easy to separate. But that’s not how language works, right? You know, language works. It’s much, much more holistic. And, you know, those those connections between reading and writing, speaking and listening, you know, they’re much, much more I don’t know, say, kind of flows a little bit more naturally, where you know, that that’s not how the human mind really works. It’s like, okay, now it’s grammar time, and I’m just gonna, I’m just gonna learn grammar. So yeah, the, the criticisms, I think, mainly have to deal with the fact that it is really labor intensive. That’s one thing getting it right is pretty labor intensive. I know there’s a, there’s a, an educator in Germany, who has been using this and has really good, and they’re actually the, when you look at the curriculum, I just mentioned Germany, and they, they, that’s a very good example of very successful Cleal approach. I mean, they have they integrated even into elementary school. And, and then they do it through the curriculum. And you can see the success that they have. That’s

Brent Warner 13:24
a great point. Because I think a lot of times people come up and they’re like, Well, why is Germany so so able to do you know, like, right, otherwise, their English so good, or, you know, Netherlands or whoever it is, right? And it’s like, well, they’re not treating it as something special and something separate right there. It’s just a part of everything. And so when that is there, right, you know, I mean, that is what we’re talking about, ultimately.

Brent Jones 13:47
Indeed.

Ixchell Reyes 13:48
So Brent, you did mention a little bit about the history of your program, but I’m wondering if you could give us a little bit more about how you were able to maybe win over people to Khalil especially being that it is hard to I guess, ideally, you would want to have all of your different programs communicating. Right. Right.

Brent Jones 14:09
Yeah. Well, I was really lucky, you know, I was asked to come in as a consultant when this when our department open. So this goes back to 2007 2008. And I had already worked with the, the original dean of the department. He was the dean of a different department before and I did some intercessions for him. And again, I’d already been interested in CBI, you know, content based instruction. And so I was using content in those intercessions and he sat in on quite a few of the lessons and realized, you know, I, I believe that he realized how powerful it was with really getting the students involved. Old, engaged, you know, and again, not just cognitively but you know, in some cases emotionally where they would, they would have, they would feel such a need to communicate whatever they what was ever on their mind that, you know, the language, of course, you know, sometimes didn’t come out as smooth as it could. But they were using the language actually using it, not just studying it. And so, you know, one of our, the key phrases that we came up with was studying in English not studying English, you know, there’s a Japanese phrase that we use for that, but, and we still use it for when we do when we do recruiting for high schools and things like that. So and then then we try to keep that kind of front of mind, as we’re, as we’re talking with students about their their language studies, is, you know, of course, you have to study study the language, but in the classroom, we’re going to use it, you know, as much as possible, use the language. And then if you have some trouble areas, or if there’s things that you think you need to shore up or or spend more focus on, then that’s, that’s what you can do outside of class.

Ixchell Reyes 16:20
And so what has been the student’s response to this approach? I guess, I can imagine it’s intimidating. Right?

Brent Jones 16:31
Yeah, yeah. And we do get some pushback, you know, because it’s, you know, the students are learning are so used to a certain kind of learning in Japan. And so when they see the teacher, turning over a lot of the decision making and, you know, turning over a lot of the management things to the students, sometimes we do get pushback, it’s like, oh, what are you doing? You know, are you really a teacher?

Brent Warner 16:59
Yeah.

Brent Jones 17:01
But I think, you know, and this may be another part of the challenge, I think, that I didn’t mention earlier, is, it’s maybe not as effective for lower level students, I think lower level students maybe need another layer, or a couple of layers of scaffolding or support, or, or something to shore up the language a little bit more. And I think we’ve found that in our program, the students who leave the program, and again, I haven’t talked really about our program, but we’re, we have three semesters of required courses. So 315 week, semesters. And students are basically they have at least 190 minute class a week, or sorry, one, one class, one English class a day, for the first three semesters, and then they can take the electives that you talked about earlier. And also we have projects, one of the underlying components of our entire program is problem based learning, or sorry, project based learning. So that the other PBL Yeah, and I can talk more about I can talk more about that later.

Brent Warner 18:25
I will, I would, I would definitely like to brag, because, well, a couple of things just coming coming back to that cycle of saying, hey, you know, getting the pushback from the students, I’ve gotten that too, because in my classes are a little bit more. They’re different than what students are used to, even in a program like ours in the States. And so they’re like, wait a second, and I actually had a student complain about me, because I gave her and all the students the freedom of deciding when they’re turning in their papers. And she, she said that without a hard deadline, it made her like delay, or whatever it was, like, it was a very interesting thing. But but so So I think you’re gonna see that right, you’re gonna see this kind of, hey, this is what I’ve been used to. And I don’t understand that actually, like, learning runs in different ways than the ways that schools have been traditionally built to, to process people through it. And so I think that’s something just if people are interested in building this type of program, or kind of building these kind of ideas is something just to be aware of. But I did want to get into some of the specific examples because I came into your class a little bit, and I observed a bit of your, you know, some of your students interacting, and it was great, really, really awesome, because you were doing I think it’s the whole class on beer, the beer industry in Japan, is that right? That’s right. So I know you’ve got a few of these different ones, but can you explain a little bit about what goes on and like how you make decisions on that content that makes value for the students?

Brent Jones 19:49
Yeah, I Well, I think with the the projects, and, and this probably is also on the Japanese side as well, but it starts with If the teachers interest, you know, it’s got to be something that the, the teacher feels really comfortable with, and excited about. Not to say that it should be their, their main area of specialty, which I think it shouldn’t be, I think the the projects should be something where the teacher still has something to learn as well. And, and again, this part of that is that gap that I was talking about earlier. But I think that’s where it starts with something that they’re the teachers excited about, then you know, of course, something that the students would be either interested in, or it would be relevant for their careers, you know, a lot of especially our second and third years, you know, they’re really ramping up and stressing about their careers, what they’re going to do. And so, so looking, looking for ideas that are not so specific, specific, that they’re going to be limited and in the impact that they have. But you know, broad enough that it’s going to, that’s going to the students are going to go away with something that they can use right away. Or they see the relevance and and they want to make that part of their, their toolbox.

Brent Warner 21:26
I love it. So, so, so we said the beer in it, can you walk us through just a little bit of that as an example? Because I think it’s, it stands out to me as unusual. But also like, but also like, really like, Oh, this is cool, because I can see why students, you know, college age students would want to study this too.

Brent Jones 21:43
Yeah, well, that’s one of the things is, you know, an alcohol, anything to do with alcohol. You know, within the last 15 or 20 years, the craft beer boom has kind of taken place. And in, you know, Japan wide, I mean, of course, worldwide, it’s been popular even longer. But the idea that, and the funny thing is a lot of the students coming into that class, that project class, are not really interested in beer, per se. They don’t particularly like beer. But they come in, and you know, it’s something like, Oh, I’d like to know more about about beer, as the industry, you know, at the macro level. But also, then, you know, we’re a school of management. So looking at it from the managers point of view. So with that course, you know, when I was developing, I was trying to think about, you know, what, what do students really need to know to get a picture of the industry. And so we start, we do it. In modules, we have three, five week modules. And the first module is basically about the American beer industry, partially because it has a short enough history that it’s not, you know, you’re not ranging over millennia. But, but also the impact that it had on the beer industry worldwide. So we spend, you know, five weeks on talking about that. And then the second five weeks, we actually look at a case study about ASAHI SUPER DRY in Japan. And ASAHI SUPER DRY basically changed the whole beer market in Japan. But there was a there was a case study written so that that case study picks up the middle. And that leads into the last module, which is the craft beer industry, craft beer market in Japan, and especially in concert and in groups of students. They choose one local brewer, do the research on them. And then contact them for an interview, go and do an interview, take some pictures, and then write up an article about them in Japanese and English. I want them to do both for that.

Ixchell Reyes 24:12
It’s fascinating

Brent Warner 24:15
Well, you get you get into it, because you can see how the students just like – there’s so many parts to the conversation but it all ties in with the business you know, like the needs and everything

Ixchell Reyes 24:25
It’s all folded in.

Brent Jones 24:27
It keeps the teacher busy, you know, you really last, first of all, you know, keeping, keeping an eye open on what’s happening and what’s relevant, but also, with within each group, the groups are working together throughout the course and realizing which individuals need more support and how to get you know how to provide support directly, but also how to provide support through the other students. because actually that becomes even more powerful that near peer role modeling. Yeah. is super powerful in those in those contexts.

Ixchell Reyes 25:11
That is so cool. So it sounds like you’ve I know, Brent had been talking about you since he heard about the course. And, you know, I was when he first said, he does this thing with beer, and English, and I was thinking, Oh, they go out and drink at a bar.

Brent Jones 25:30
No, no, at the end, you know, I actually try to at least get some other students to actually visit breweries and look at, you know, we talked about the brewing process. We talked about all of that through the course. But I really want to get them out of the classroom. And, and sadly, not as many of them as I like, I’ve gotten them actually into the brew house to see how it’s done. But a few do and, and they get a few students actually, who, by the end of the course, they are excited about beer, not just not just drinking, you know, for fun, but you know, the whole

Ixchell Reyes 26:12
Yeah, that’s very cool.

Brent Warner 26:14
And it’s cool. Yeah. And that’s just one example. Right? That’s one class that you cycles through, right? So there’s different different topics and all sorts of things. It’s just like, What a cool program to have.

Brent Jones 26:23
Yeah, yeah. And I’ll just, I’ll just throw out a few of the other courses, you know, the ones that I’m doing one on documentary – documentary filmmaking, from April. So I’m, that’s on my mind right now. And I think this is the third time I’ve done it. I don’t do any of the projects. Back to back what I mean is I, I tried to take a year off, and that’s to keep me fresh. And also it allows it studio students are interested in taking my other projects. They can so they can’t take the same project, of course. So it gives, you know, I get to meet more students that way. And it kind of keeps me fresh as well. So documentary filmmaking, I’m doing an oral histories project in the fall, which this will probably be the fifth or even sixth time that I’ve done that one. Roger does one on Pecha Kucha night which we it’s also part of our our program. We’ve been hosting Pecha Kucha nights for 15 years now. Number 59 is coming up next month.

Ixchell Reyes 27:29
Cool!

Brent Warner 27:29
I participated in that.

Brent Jones 27:31
Yeah, he’s one of our one of our guest speakers. Yeah, yeah.

Ixchell Reyes 27:35
Very, very cool. So, Brent, if people are thinking about CLIL, teachers or programs, if anyone’s listening out there from a program that can help their teachers get started, where would they look? What what what would you ask them to? Where do you where do you think that they would get should get started?

Brent Jones 27:54
Yeah, I think just, you know, reading up as much on, you know, looking at case studies, I’m a big fan of case studies. So looking at, you know, published reports on programs that that are reporting, because often those will also address the challenges and the problems that they have. So looking at as many cases as possible. Yeah, I think I’ll talk about the the challenges that we’ve had, and that maybe, will give some hints, what teachers should be on the lookout for the big 111 big one is that if teachers are not really trained in Quill, or CBI, then the the focus kind of tends to drift more toward the content over the language. And we don’t want that as well, because that’s, you know, you know, edit at our core, you know, we’re English, their English courses, they’re there to develop the target language skills. And so, you know, keeping that balance in in mind, that’s what have been one of our big challenges, we have to constantly remind the teachers, we have a lot of part time teachers in our program. And so, again, you know, they’re running around, you know, they might be at five different universities in the week they’re coming in, and all the other universities, it’s, you know, pick up the textbook, let’s go to page 76. You know, let’s do these drills. And so, you know, making sure that they they understand what we’re trying to do so we actually write all the lesson plans, we, we try to leave it as flexible as possible. Meaning, meaning that we don’t want to take away the teachers independence, the teacher, you know, we’re, you know, they’re they’re professionals, and they’re going to have their own twist on teaching things. But we have a kind of core curriculum they made for them. And also the materials, we develop our own materials, we only actually we cut out two textbooks this semester. So I think we’re down to just one course that uses a textbook, everything else is materials that are based, you know, prepared by us. Yeah, so those are the big challenges and, and keeping and reminding students as well. That, you know, they are making progress with the language. So sometimes they lose, they lose sight of that as well, like, oh, yeah, I’m learning a lot about American Studies, or I’m learning a lot about discussion and debate, but my English is not getting better, right, actually is it is getting better, you just, you just don’t, no, you don’t recognize it. So, you know, reminding students that, you know, you’re, you’re, you are developing, you’re making progress. And luckily, we’ve, you know, we have in our program to, they take a test called the G tech. And then at the end of their first semester, and the end of the third semester, they take the TOEIC test, which is another Japan based, but we have the two tests, which they take a year apart. And, and so we can show the students and we can show administrators, you know, they are making progress, and we have other departments in the university to compare to, and our program always comes out on top. Yeah, yeah.

Brent Warner 31:43
Yeah, this is great. There’s so much to think about. And so I think one of the things that might be inspiring for people listening is like, Oh, the, you know, so many teachers kind of get into this, like, Oh, I’m doing the cycle of the classes that I always teach, and maybe it’s not that fresh for me, or whatever else it is, right. And so I love the idea of like, how engaging it is for teachers as well, right? And it’s like, it’s not just like, Okay, I’m doing this stuff for all for the students. It’s like, No, I get to make something out of these courses that sparks, you know, some joy and excitement in me as a teacher as well, and keeps me thinking about, you know, fresh ideas and all that. So I really, I like how those are all possibilities with this, and and then it allows you to pursue interests through your work at the same time. So what a great setup to have.

Brent Jones 32:32
It’s so key, it’s so key, you know, and I think the teachers will find that it’s refreshing, it’s so refreshing to, you know, to have a have something that they’re excited about.

Ixchell Reyes 32:47
Very cool.

Brent Warner 32:48
Thank you so much for, for sharing all of this, Brent, I think it’s just fascinating stuff. And there’s, there’s so much cool stuff to explore that maybe a lot of our listeners haven’t totally been exposed to this side of thing, right? Even though content based teaching or, you know, this is these are ideas that of course, have been out there. But I love the idea of like really kind of digging in and building it in, in the kind of in the nerves of the program.

Ixchell Reyes 33:13
And if you are have been using CLIL and you are listening, and we just don’t know about you let us know, we’d love to see how others are implementing this method.

All right, it is time for our fun finds. And this time around I have I don’t own any records. Right? You do, right?

Brent Warner 33:33
I do. Yeah.

Ixchell Reyes 33:35
But I found that a, I found a mesh record holder like it’s like a display case, but it’s just the right size to keep in my classroom and fill it with books. It’s movable, it’s portable, and it’s pretty affordable. And so I had been looking for something that I could have in my classroom to expose my students to the books. And since we don’t have furniture in our classrooms, that was the perfect thing. So it’s just a again, just look up record holder, and it fits just enough and I can put it away when I need to.

Brent Warner 34:08
Nice actually, I love that idea of displaying the books that you’re reading or that you’re working on for your students. It’s kind of like this, this reminder for them, like Oh, there’s more, you know, people are doing this stuff, or whatever it is. So that’s great. So mine, I’m taking it back to an old video game from the from the 90s. It’s called MYST and it’s been re released on many platforms over the years. And so I just downloaded it, I found it that it’s you know, it was on discount or something for for the Mac and so I was like you know what, I haven’t played this since I was a teenager I want to I want to give it a try and so MYST m-y-s-t is a very classic kind of discovery, first person video game where you just kind of move around this island and try to figure out whatever it was going on but but check it out if you’re interested in a classic game. Brent, Do you have a fun find?

Brent Jones 35:01
Yeah, Well, I want to mention about MYST. I remember that was one of the first kind of roleplay or simulation type games that I that I played it. Yeah, I’m happy to hear that it’s still making making some headway. Yeah. So one thing that I’d like to introduce, and I don’t know about your listeners, they may have heard about this already, but, but it’s x reading. And it’s basically a learning management system. And he has connections with a lot of the major publishers, so they have a huge amount of titles. And also, there’s tests for each of the graded readers. But you know, students have their smartphones with them all the time. And they, you know, a lot, some of them have a lot of train time. And so being able to read a graded reader on the way home, we like it. Yeah, X Reading.

Ixchell Reyes 35:54
X Reading. Wonderful.

Brent Warner 36:00
Thanks so much for listening to the show. You can check out our YouTube channel. And we have a video on there that Ixchell made about generating AI images for the classroom. And so if you haven’t gotten check that out, it’s a great video and some great advice. So thanks, Ixchell, for making that. And it does tie in with our last episode, which was on AI image generation for language development. And so that was on episode 102. Go check it out. If you have a chance. Out there in the world. On the socials. You can find me at @BrentGWarner,

Ixchell Reyes 36:37
You can find me at @Ixy_Pixy, that’s I x y underscore P i x, y.

Brent Warner 36:43
And Brent., where can people – Oh, you also do a podcast, right? So we want to make sure that people people hear about that. But where can people find you?

Brent Jones 36:52
Yeah, I’m on Facebook, LinkedIn, LinkedIn, I do have an Instagram account, but I don’t post a lot. Yeah, and the podcast is wordhunters.com.

Oh, I’ve listened to that. I’ve listened to word hunters!

I’m really happy to have the chance to reciprocate for Brent. Brent was on our show and and the purpose of that podcast is more about people sharing their stories, just people talking about their experiences. Yeah, hope people can tune in.

Brent Warner 37:24
Yeah, that’s great. And then also love how it ties in with your, your oral histories as well when you get into content based learning or the coil setup to.

Brent Jones 37:33
That’s right.

Brent Warner 37:36
Thanks so much, everybody for listening to the show. We appreciate your time and we’ll see you in the next episode.

Ixchell Reyes 37:42
Thank you!